The SaaS Bootstrapper Podcast

TSB011: Natalie Nagele on solving your own pain points, drowning out competitor noise and building a spectacular team

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Episode overview:

In 2000 Natalie Nagele and her husband Chris founded Wildbit as a web design shop in Philadelphia. Their business evolved from there, and today it’s the parent company of three successful products—Beanstalk, a development workflow; DeployBot, a code deployment tool; and Postmark, a marketing email delivery service. In this episode, Natalie reflects on how good ideas build on each other, how luck and timing play into product success, why she doesn’t pay attention to competitors, and the importance of taking care of your people first.

Special offer! “The SaaS Boostrapper” listeners get 10,000 extra credits on Postmark for new and existing Postmark users. Listen to the episode to hear how to get them. Thanks, Natalie!

Guest links:





@cnagele on Twitter

@wildbit on Twitter

@postmarkapp on Twitter

Mentioned in this episode:

The interview:

Mac: You are listening to the “SaaS Bootstrapper Podcast,” interviews with entrepreneurs and startup founders about bootstrapping, SaaS, startups, and anything in between. If you enjoy the show, please head over at iTunes and give an honest rating of the podcast. It helps others to find the show and helps bring these inspiring discussions to both established and aspiring entrepreneurs. Here we go.

Today’s guest is co-founder and CEO of Wildbit. Wildbit are the creators of Beanstalk, DeployBot and Postmark. Wildbit both bootstrapped and profitable over 16 years, has a couple of dozen employees and going strong. Natalie Nagele, welcome to the show.

Natalie: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Mac: Good morning. How are you today?

Natalie: Great. It’s a beautiful sunny day in Philadelphia.

Mac: Oh, good, good. So I know you know, but for the other listeners, I had Garrett Dimon on the show recently. And for anyone that doesn’t know him or hasn’t heard the show, I suggest that you go back and listen to it. He was incredibly inspiring, he was the founder of Sifter. And after years of health issues, he decided to sell Sifter and join Wildbit. We didn’t go to deep into it, but it sounded to me like if he was gonna sell Sifter, Wildbit is the place he’s gonna go. So as soon we finished the call and I was about to hung up and he said, “Wait, wait.” And he’s made a point to say that I needed to get you, Natalie, on the show. So I’m excited to talk to you. You come highly recommended and I am a fan of Wildbit, so.

Natalie: Awesome.

Mac: So congratulations on getting him. I think that’s a good addition. He’s awesome. So why don’t you back up and tell me a little bit about your history in joining Wildbit?

Natalie: Sure. So, yeah, I run Wildbit with Chris who is my husband. We just celebrated our 16th Wildbit anniversary and he started it when he was young. And we’ve been together 13 years so doing most time together. But he started it when he was, kind of, doing some brochure short sites for local Philadelphia of like bars and clubs and things like that.

And, eventually, we moved into consulting for like a lot of social networks and just did a lot of client work for a long time until we could afford to run products full time, and that was, kind of, always the dream. So that’s how we ended up. But right now, we’re a fully product company. We don’t do any client work and we haven’t for years, but that’s just the transition. So 16 years and counting.

Mac: That’s great. What was your background before meeting up with Chris?

Natalie: Oh, goodness. I went to school for risk management and insurance.

Mac: Okay.

Natalie: Nothing, nothing technical. It’s all self-taught, yeah.

Mac: That’s great.

Natalie: Yeah. I mean it’s a family business so it was Wildbit was and is, you know, like our livelihood. And so when we started dating and hanging out, and you know, I just started helping, you know, which just kind of happens [inaudible 00:02:41] when. I started QuickBooks, and support, and, you know, slowly moved up, and learned all of the technical stuffs that I needed to learn. And, you know, eventually, we’re pretty good at being the opposite of each other so we fit it.

Mac: That’s great. What was your background before meeting up with Chris?

Natalie: Oh, goodness. I went to school for risk management and insurance.

Mac: Okay.

Natalie: Nothing, nothing technical. It’s all self-taught. Yeah.

Mac: That’s great.

Natalie: Yeah. I mean it’s a family business so, you know, it was Wildbit was and is like our livelihood. And so when we started dating and hanging out, and you know, I just started helping. You know, it just kind of happens [inaudible 00:03:18]. I started QuickBooks, and support, and, you know, , slowly moved up, and learned all of the technical stuffs that I needed to learn. And, you know, eventually, we’re pretty good at being the opposite of each other so we fit really nicely into, kind of, CEO and CTO roles. It’s where we are today.

Mac: That’s great. So, at that time, it was just Chris and you started helping him out or did he have other people helping as well?

Natalie: No, we’ve had people. Yeah, there was remote. We’ve been doing remote since the very beginning. So the very first person Chris ever hired was a guy in Romania so. This was in ‘99, 2000 so a long, long time ago before, you know, with Western Union, and all kinds of stuff. But we’ve always had people that worked for us. Chris is not really a programmer. I mean definitely he’s not anymore. He started off doing a little bit of Php but he wasn’t very good at it so he hired somebody that was and, yeah. So neither one of us are actually technical in that sense. Like we don’t write code.

Mac: So you were saying you started out doing brochure like designs?

Natalie: Yeah. Some Flash, lots of flash.

Mac: Oh, okay.

Natalie: Yeah. I mean if you can picture what a nightclub, what does it look like in the early 2000s that’s…

Mac: Oh yeah. Okay.

Natalie: All they had was kind of Flash. It’s beautiful, beautiful…

Mac: That’s great.

Natalie: [Inaudible 00:04:28].

Mac: So how did you guys started getting into products then? I guess what was the interest there, and how did you guys transition, and what was the first one?

Natalie: So the first one was a product that we no longer have called Newsberry. We, in, I guess, 2004. So Chris and I were already doing together. We were doing client work and we required email marketing tools for these, you know, like restaurants. Kind of we did like some cultural stuff in the city and there wasn’t a lot of stuff out there back then. So we ended up building something, building a tool for our clients to send email newsletters and then looked at that and said like, “Hey, we can make this into product.” And actually had our customers, at the time, invest in it. Like you can use it free if you give us a little bit of money to like, kind of, build it and they did. So we ran Newberry but it’s always side project to tinker with a little bit. By then we ended up shutting it down and that’s a long story. We can talk about it if it’s interesting but that’s kind of a different thing.

And then Beanstalk came a few years later and that was [inaudible 00:05:30]. So Chris was managing our SPN repositories and it was a giant pain in the ass. And every time we had a user, it would like go in, and it was just terrible. So he kind of had the ideas, like we could just host people’s repos and manage all the SPN stuff ourselves. And we asked a few friends and said, “Would you ever put your source code on somebody else’s server?” And they’re like, “No, you’re crazy.” We did it anyway and, you know, Beanstalk became like our big product. You know? The oldest had just turned, yeah, nine this year. So that was it.

And then we, kind of, just transitioned. That was always the dream right? Like we loved our clients and we had some really incredible clients, but the dream was always to do for yourself. So we just totally made our way into only client work.

Mac: So at what point were you able to actually drop the brochure, the, sort of, non-product work?

Natalie: At that point, it was more. Like we were doing…building like big social networks and things like that so it wasn’t, like, brochure stuff. But out goal, Chris and I, was to make sure that we didn’t have to fire anybody. So basically, we needed Beanstalk to make enough money so that it pays everybody’s salary so everybody just transitioned to Beanstalk.

I mean I was just talking to somebody about this. I think we got lucky in the time when that happened because we weren’t this big 25-person company with, you know, millions of dollars in payroll. We were a much smaller company back then, and our payroll wasn’t that extreme. So it didn’t take that long for Beanstalk to grow, to be able to support the entire Wildbit team at the time.

And then when it got really close and we, kind of, could project the growth, we took on like the last iteration with a client. And then we borrowed some money from Chris’ dad, you know, that was my just in case. Like that helped me sleep at night knowing that like if anything happens, I can draw a little bit out of it and that was it. We’re able to, kind of, transition 100% without having to have any shift in employees or team.

Mac: That’s great. So how many employees, would you say, you had like approximately that time? Was it…

Natalie: I wanna say 10.

Mac: And all remote?

Natalie: Yes. We didn’t have people in Philly until 2010. No, no, no, 2012 maybe.

Mac: And so now, do you guys have an office or you’re still…?

Natalie: Yes. Not yet. So, sorry, I have to think about that. I don’t keep track of this.

Mac: Yes, okay.

Natalie: You know, because it’s been a lot of years.

Mac: It went many years all remote is the point so that’s…

Natalie: Yeah. Yes, it was. Non-remote is, kind of, new for us and we’re half and half. But, yeah, we have an office in Philadelphia. We have 10,000 square feet that we rented. So we’re just here a year in April that we moved to because then we wanna build private offices for everyone. So about 70% of our team is remote and then the rest is in Philly, maybe 60-40 split. And we wanted to make sure that the local team had a remote like environment. So they had their own private office. The door closes, they can focus, and get their work done, and not feel distracted. And, you know, had all of that same feeling that you do when you’re remote but we’re just kind of in the office together.

Mac: It seems like with a 70% remote team that that office is there as a nice-to-have for them to go to? Or are people going in there every day or is there still a lot of working at home and…?

Natalie: Most of us are here every day. A lot of that has to do with having kids. So a lot of us who are in here every day have kids or just, you know, really wanna work with the team in Philly. We bring a lot of the remote team in periodically like Garrett and Rian, who’s the product manager on Postmark, are coming in second week of January for planning. So we do, we really love the face-to-face and if I’m honest with myself I would… You know, in a perfect world, we all lived in the same city that we loved, and close to our families, and we all worked together. I love being in the same office together, but I also appreciate that people… You know, I can find really amazing people all over the world and I don’t ever stop us from doing that, but yeah.

Mac: Did you know Garrett through him being a customer of yours or…? What I’m getting at is I’m curious if a lot of the people that you end up hiring remotely, you have some preexisting connection with through some relationship or you are putting out… You know, is it through job applications or…?

Natalie: I think it depends. So some of our teams have been together for a really long time. Like Eugene just celebrated his 12th anniversary with Wildbit, you know, [inaudible 00:09:33] must have been here 10. So, like we have a lot of the teams who has been here for a long time. A lot we get through referrals. So somebody knows somebody who’s great.

And then we do get some folks. You know, we put it on other remote job sites, we put it on the locals job sites when we look…when we’re hiring, on our own network. You know, we’ve got our own site and through our connections and we get applicants that way. I don’t if we actually get a lot of customers. I know we get a lot of people who use the products, but Garrett is just a unique case because we’ve known each other for a really long time. And I always dreamed of us working together. So when the opportunity, kind of, came up, I jumped on it and here we are.

Mac: So okay. Let’s jump back to products for a minute. So Beanstalk was your big, sounds like your first product to really take off, and that’s still going now. You also have Postmark, which is transactional email sending and DeployBot. So are those your main three now or that’s…?

Natalie: That’s three. Yeah.

Mac: The three? Yeah. Okay.

Natalie: Yeah.

Mac: So I was looking at the pricing and so I know that the pricing on Postmark is per usage.

Natalie: Transactionally, yeah.

Mac: Transactional. And then Beanstalk is monthly?

Natalie: A SaaS product, yes.

Mac: SaaS?

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. [Inaudible 00:10:42] DeployBot.

Mac: And then how about DeployBot?

Natalie: Both of them are.

Mac: Both of them are? Well, has Beanstalk has always been a SaaS app?

Natalie: Yeah. I mean you can think back to like when we launched Beanstalk, it was like there wasn’t a lot of that around. So, like, we’re really lucky that it was always like a monthly plan. It was really basic. We tried to keep the pricing as simple as possible. We really like simplicity. [inaudible 00:11:01] a little more complicated since then. I would love to have made Postmark like a SaaS pricing model, to do like just monthly-recurring revenue. But we kind of philosophically don’t believe in that for the service we’re offering. So we, kind of, had to build it transactional.

Mac: Yeah. And I was wondering about that. It seems like even though it is transactional, it’s not the traditional recurring. As in this person is subscribed, I know that I’m gonna get this amount of money. But I was wondering if it does…if it is still somewhat predictable and that people have the same usage over time?

Natalie: No. So one of the coolest things… I wish. It’s one of the things that I complain to the CM about a lot is I have no idea how much we’re gonna make next month. I have some ideas and we have some modeling in place to help us to kind of predict. But the cool think about Postmark is we actually grow as our customers grow.

So if you picture like a SaaS product or, you know, any kind of web app, an ecommerce site things like that, hopefully, our customers are doing better every month. So every month, they’re sending a little bit more. You know, they’re signing up a couple of more users. They’re sending couple more welcome emails, a couple more patch [inaudible 00:12:02], comment notifications, whatever. So, actually, most accounts volumes go up every month.

So it’s extremely hard to predict because even if you prepay for…you pre-purchase a certain volume predicting based on, you know, are their own internal models, we don’t really [inaudible 00:12:22], right? So it’s not like what I say, “Are you buying for six months,” you know? And so there’s no time limit on it. So we do a lot of prediction on our side but it’s really challenging because, you know, right now, it’s the end of the year and holiday shopping, and promotions, and all those kind of stuff. And it’s really hard to predict because it’s just really based on how much volume our customers send.

Mac: So does knowing that, that the better your customers do, the better Postmark does, does that influence maybe how you think of helping those customers or what you put into that app? I mean do you really think about how you can help them grow more than you might otherwise? I mean it might sound funny to say it that way but…

Natalie: So we focus a lot. We’re the only service, Postmark is the only service that…the only email source provider that’s only transactional. S we don’t allow any kind of bulk marketing newsletters, or anything like that. And we do that because we feel like what we’re doing, to your point, is very much tied to the success of the products like we’re enabling… Our actual, our end user ends up being our customer’s customer, right? So like we end up helping and making…we’re trying to make their lives better by delivering their emails really quickly.

So what we do with our customers is we try to enable them to have a better process of communicating with their end users. Currently, you know, we’re doing that with email but we’re building tooling and education around really understanding the value and the importance of your communications with your user.

So one of the big things we know is that when you run a web app, or an ecommerce, or, you know, kind of any SaaS product. Anything on the internet that involves, kind of, communicating with your user via email, those transactional emails are actually very time-sensitive whereas like a newsletter isn’t, you know? So if like you’re sending a newsletter, you’re not…nobody is sitting around waiting for Gap’s newsletter to come in, you know? But if somebody hits a password reset on Gap’s site like they have to get there by the time they click to that tab in their Gmail inbox.

And what happens is when that doesn’t happen, and it doesn’t come in right away, they email our support request. Now, your support team is ballooning because you’re just not getting your emails to the inbox or they’re not getting there very quickly.

So we focus a lot on, like, we consider ourselves an infrastructure product. Because we are much closer to, or much more similar like your hosting, your web hosting than we would be to, like, your mix panel, or your campaign monitor, or your other SaaS products. Because what we do is so much…so closely tied to actually how you build and, kind of, manage your product. Does that make sense?

Mac: Yeah, it does make sense. So, it does seem like a lot of the attention is just on providing a good service and being reliable and…?

Natalie: Yeah, and educating on users on, like, our customers in the importance. Like there’s things that you can do that’s really awesome. Like, you know, you signed up for an app and you can invite your team for it, right? And you type in a bunch of invites and you mistype. Like, you know, Natalie Wild and you mistype it. Then you’re sitting there, waiting like, “Why don’t they accept it? Why don’t they accept it?”

You know, if you’re thoughtful about it, you can take our web post. You can take it, put it back into the app. All of a sudden you log in and you’re like, “Oh, Natalie Wild bounced.” Like fix the email addresses and resend it, right? Like small little things maybe take a day’s worth of development. But you simplify the process for your users, you make it much more pleasant, and you cut down tremendously on support. Because now that person is not emailing saying like, “Hey, I invited Natalie, she didn’t get the email, where is she?,” you know, all those kind of stuff.

Mac: You guys clearly have an audience now. So when you release these products, you have people, you have an audience that’s listening. But going back, to I mean I guess, Beanstalk, how did you guys actually get your first customers and get that out in the market? Because you did have the clients, it sounds like, that you could help to use that. But was that enough to really get it snowballing or…?

Natalie: No, I don’t think so. I mean it’s a great story, but I truly… Like I could never replicate what happened to Beanstalk with Postmark, or Postmark with DeployBot. I think so much of that depends on the market, and the industry, and where things have been.

We got really lucky with Beanstalk. It was 2008… I mean, yeah, 2007, I guess. Yeah. And so, you have to like remember apps were launching very frequently. You know, we integrated with Basecamp and they talked about it on their blog, you know, like…

So I think like the timing and when we did it played a lot in our favor. You know, we launched Postmark and we sent an email to all our Beanstalk customers. And we said, “Hey, we got this great app” and, you know, the audience was the same [inaudible 00:16:50] tools for developers.” And so, the audience is the same and we’re like, “Hey, come on,” you know, and to be this like crazy. Our first month with Postmark was like… I think we made 10 grand in the first month. It was like, “What?” You know, like, “How did that happen?” And it was because we had this, like, built-in audience. DeployBot was different. So, you know, I think it depends on where you are and, unfortunately, I don’t think there’s… I don’t have a formula, a good one, to offer that I think is reproducible in our case.

Mac: Sure. So then Postmark, you did have an overlapping audience with Beanstalk and how… Is that where the idea for Postmark came from? Did it come from something that your customers, that you knew that they needed that they were telling you about or…?

Natalie: Oh, we needed it. So we’re sending a ton of emails through Beanstalk and had no visibility on where they were going. So we were getting support for the missing invite, the missing commit notification, you know, the missing password reset. And Chris went through, like log in the mail servers, tried to look through logs and comb through it, and it was like silly.

Again, this was a long time ago and so, there wasn’t really a lot of options out there for web apps. And so, we built, kind of, our tag lines that when launched, it was, like, because you’re blind, because there was nothing. No way for you to see what your application was doing. And that’s, kind of, why we launched it.

Mac: And so, which of these apps is now… Would you say your, sort of, the most popular, you’re getting the most attention? Is there one or they all, sort of, doing really well?

Natalie: They’re all different in their own ways. I think Postmark, right now internally, is getting a lot of attention because it’s really just doing [inaudible 00:18:22] thing in terms of growth and excitement. We’re actually heavily invested in Beanstalk, reevaluating what we wanna we do with it in terms of what problem we’re solving and are we solving it really well for our customers? We have some really exciting stuff coming up for our customers for Beanstalk that’s, kind of, radically different. So we’re investing some time into that and Deploybot also.

So I think they’re all, kind of, different. What I keep saying to my team is we’re lucky that they’re all in different stages of their lives. And that’s kind of why we’ve been able to maintain three products where I think it’s normally extremely hard to do. And I mean not that it’s not easy. It’s extremely hard to do. But I think the only thing that’s allowing us to, kind of, keep it all and floating is the fact that they have different needs and different life cycles, and that’s really helped us.

Mac: Do you have separate product teams for each of these or are people just on, you know, developing on any of the three or marketing any of the three?

Natalie: We have, for the most part, different product teams for everything. We’ve always had different developers and engineers on it all. We still have some shared resources in things like QA and systems, but for the most part, we have very dedicated teams.

Mac: I realize that we haven’t really touched on Deploybot much and where did that idea stem from?

Natalie: Very similarly in… We had our own customers who we’re using Beanstalk but also using some other tool like GitHub or Bitbucket but really wanted our deployment toolset, which is one of Beanstalk’s most prized features. And so, we, kind of, said like we can spin out deployments into its own product and plug it into GitHub, Bitbucket, anything you really want. Like your own host of solution and be able to do some of our deployments.

So we, kind of, did as a side project and it took off. People loved it and slowly took on a mind of its own where it has a very different feature set at this point. So we actually offered for free to Beanstalk customers and it integrates with Beanstalk. Because it has like a different mind process that isn’t really… It just belongs on its own so it’s kind of in a good place where it’s on its own. But, yeah, it was born out of a need for, you know, some of the other providers that people we’re using.

Mac: I guess since you put out Postmark and DeployBot, do you guys do much other marketing besides notifying your existing customers?

Natalie: Historically, we were never really good at it. DeployBot was the first one where we like really had, like, a small team to help us launch. Just kind of did a little bit of PR around it and, you know, wrote about it a lot. Tried to find people that we loved and trusted to like share it, and to test it, and stuff like that, and that really helped.

We’re trying to get better and smarter and that marketing was never something that Chris and I focused on or had any knowledge or… Well, that’s not fair. We had knowledge of it, I guess, but just never focused on it. So we were always focused on the product and word of mouth, and that was kind of how we grew Wildbit to where it is today. It’s always been just like build a really spectacular product.

But we’re realizing the market has changed, and it’s much noisier out there, and people’s attentions are being pulled everywhere. And every day, there’s a new product, there’s sites, like product content, just keep up with it. And so, Garett, Shane, and, you know, I have a team now that we think about being a little bit more strategic about how we’re doing things, and what we’re doing, and where we’re investing our time and our money. We’re still small team, right, but we’re trying to figure out like what the best approach is for that.

Mac: And I think there often is a bit of luck. And I think with the timing of getting established early with Beanstalk, you’ve been able to ride out a lot of, probably… I don’t know about tough times. There is so much more competition in everything now. And like you’re saying, there’s new competitors everywhere, every single day. I know you have to pay attention to it, at least a little bit, but how much do you pay attention to it and worry about it?

Natalie: So part of this is my personality. I hate focusing on any of that stuff because to me… We try to plan internally based on like what we believe in. And we try to plan features, and product strategy, and decisions on like the things we know, the things we’ve tested, the things we really believe in.

You know, we’ve done this a long enough time to not really worry as much. Like, “Oh, a new competitor pops up,” or “They launched this feature,” or whatever.” Because I don’t think the world moves as quickly as those things feel. But for me, if I dwell on anything external too long that I’m losing focus on the things that I know and I believe in. So like if we sat down in January and said, “This is the plan for the next three months” and we really believed in it. We need to execute on that plan and not get distracted by shiny objects every time something new comes along.

So, personally, I don’t read competitor blog posts, I don’t follow competitors on Twitter, I don’t. I know my team does and that’s okay. You know, like I don’t force it on anybody else. But I try to stay focused on what I know, and what I believe in, and what my team believes in, and kind of try to stay on course that way.

Mac: Yeah, it makes sense. So I think that’s good. Yeah. It’s so easy to be sidetracked and start to question if you’re making the right decision then. So, what’s the focus of Wildbit now? Do you have more? You said you’re rethinking Beanstalk a little bit and where’s that going, are you constantly thinking of new products or do they just, kind of, come up when they come up or…?

Natalie: No, no. I think we’re pretty mixed out. I mean Wildbit is a really special place because we’re never born out of a product. We were born out of a team. So a lot of things startup, people have an idea. They find a technical co-founder or technical co-founder finds a non-technical, whatever but the team and then they build a team to build the product. And then you kind of went with the product, the product succeeds, the team succeeds. The product fails, the team dissolves. There’s nothing wrong with that.

But Wildbit wasn’t born that way. So Wildbit was born from a team that did consulting projects together, and that loved each, and that grew other together. And so, the way I look at it is like my job is to ensure the success of that team being together for like 10, 15, 20 years. So to me, the product is irrelevant. Wildbit is not a product. Wildbit is a company of people who love to build some of the new, greater products for developers.

So I spend most of my time focusing on growth for the sake of my team having a job, not growth for the sake of growing. So like adding more products to the mix is, kind of…I think that would distract us from that. But at the same time, as long as we can keep sustaining our team in a way that we want with the products that we have [inaudible 00:24:33].

If for some reason, the market changes or we start sucking at whatever we’re doing, and we feel like we need to make a shift then that revolves it. You know, yes, we will do whatever we need to do just to be here around for a long time.

But I am really enjoying the new challenges of learning how to grow a product and not just launch our products because it’s very, very different. And I think it’s challenging, Chris and I in ways we’ve never been challenged before. And that’s what I think makes so this fun right now. It’s like we’re doing things we’ve never done and that’s really exciting.

Mac: Your website says something like, “We’re more than a company, we’re a family.” And it sounds like you mean it and that’s true, and that you think of it that way. That’s really refreshing to hear.

Natalie: Yeah. People come here and they’re like, “We weren’t sure if it was all with the service but then we come here.” And they were like, “Oh, shit, it really is,” you know. Yeah, I mean that’s like… I mean we do this because, you know, we wanna do something that we really love, with people that we really like. And so, yeah, I don’t know another way to do it. Other than really focusing on the team’s happiness and being sure that we’re doing things that’s awesome. And, you know, it has to be profitable and sustainable, and we gotta make money, and we gotta to grow, like those things, they’re all. But the end result is because we all wanna kind of like keep doing this together.

Mac: Yeah. And I think that feeds into growth and feeds into, you know, doing well, nurturing those relationships in that family so. Well, Natalie, this has been really, really great. So, I think you mentioned that you had something for the listeners for Postmark?

Natalie: We’ve always supported bootstrap companies. That’s a big part of our DNA. And Postmark, in particular, has a program called, “Think Strapped,” that gives away 50,000 free credits to any of these bootstraps. But I wanted to extend to any of your listeners another 10,000 credits. So that’s like 10,000 emails sent or received. And if anybody, you know, hears this and wants to try Postmark or even is using Postmark now and loves it, just, kind of, shout out to this poor team. And just say, “You saw Natalie” and they’ll throw another 10,000 credits.

I think one of the things that makes bootstrapping unattractive to a lot of people is that you get a lot of support systems around fundraising. You get free software from other people in the fund and, you know, you get advisors and things like that. And I’ve always wanted to make sure that we were available to bootstrap teams to offer both the resources and the advice when necessary. So that they had an equal opportunity to grow without needing to get investment in the situations where investment isn’t really necessary.

Mac: That’s great. That’s really a good idea and very, very thoughtful. Well, I appreciate it, Natalie. I wish you and Wildbit the best.